Tamers & TI's - Need unnerfed. [Proof]

[Alcsaar]

So after realizing in the past week or so that TIs are not at all worth doing on a tamer, some people were asking me for proof, so today when the Undead one took off in moonglow, I decided to record the amount of gold and platinum I made, and SS the final image of the score card at the end.

I did BY FAR the most damage, like nearly 4x the damage of the second highest player.  I got 4th place.  The top scoring player did 13k damage.  13k.


I understand you don't want tamers to always be #1 on this, but sometimes you jsut have to realize that the people who advance the TI the furthest need to be compensated for it.  I will no longer bother doing TIs on my tamer until this is changed.  I will sit on my dexxer or bard like everyone else and sure, maybe the TI will then take 3+ hours to complete, but at least I had a chance at the statue then.

If doing 4x the damage of the next highest person isn't worthy of being in the loot pool for the rare, I don't know what is.

I made:
50797 gold (Looting everything I could + the boss gold at end)
27 platinum (Some of this was looted off mobs, not awarded)


And this is the scorecard.

For the record, tamers ARE NOT FUN to play at these events.  Dealing with keeping all your pets alive and organized and trying to get them to kill targets is absolutely painful.  All guard me works moderatley well for some things, but not this style of mass mobs, where if you are attacked by multiple mobs at once, all guard me will only work on the first mob.

It certainly takes far more effort than running around provoking on a bard or auto attacking on a dexxer.  I don't really know how anyone could possibly argue that point.

Solution:  Nerf direct damage, a 1 to 1 ratio is FAR too high.  Slightly raise pet damage contribution to compensate for mages so they can get more credit off their summons.  Warriors might get fucked, but all well, you aren't playing an effective PVE build so you should just be happy about all the gold you're getting.

[yakka]

You are new and it may seem out of whack to do 5x the damage and not be first but there are reasons. The damage was modified because early on everyone showed up with tamers and the ti and boss were wiped out in 20 minutes. The winner in this ti is a tank mage a perfectly suitable template for pve. It takes a bit more skill and work to do direct damage then stand around letting dragons do the work. I used my tamer early on in these for the ease(yes ease as much as you want to make it seem difficult) before these changes were made. Now I prefer a bard. The damage has been set this way for about 7 months with tis everyday without any major issues. Tis are a community gathering event not a how fast and easy can we kill everything and get mad loot event. The best thing is it is open to many templates so folks can play what they enjoy even pks get in on the action. If a tamer is not fun for you and other builds are more lucrative then seems an easy choice of what to do in future tis. Jack has spent a ton of time working on and tweaking these events to keep them as balanced as possible. Future adjustments and tweaking may be made but until then enjoy and be happy with all the gold you are getting.

[Alcsaar]

You are new and it may seem out of whack to do 5x the damage and not be first but there are reasons. The damage was modified because early on everyone showed up with tamers and the ti and boss were wiped out in 20 minutes.  The winner in this ti is a tank mage a perfectly suitable template for pve.  It takes a bit more skill and work  to do direct damage then stand around letting dragons do the work.   I used my tamer early on in these for the ease(yes ease as much as you want to make it seem difficult)  before these changes were made.  Now I prefer a bard. The damage has been set this way for about 7 months with tis everyday without any major issues. Tis are a community gathering event not a how fast and easy can we kill everything and get mad loot event.  The best thing is it is open to many templates so folks can play what they enjoy even pks get in on the action.  If a tamer is not fun for you and other builds are more lucrative then seems an easy choice of what to do in future tis.  Jack has spent a ton of time working on and tweaking these events to keep them as balanced as possible.  Future adjustments and tweaking may be made but until then  enjoy and be happy with all the gold you are getting.

Strange that you claim tamers are just as easy to play in TIs as other templates, and yet you've admitted that you now play a bard.  And lets not beat around the bush, thats because it takes less effort to play and is just as effective or more so on score.  I posted this because I would like to see a change, because it is NOT okay for people to play PVP templates in a PVE event and get top scores.  There are what, 4 pvp events? and only ONE semi pve event.  You guys have your events, we dont.  From now all I'll be playing a bard or mage in TIs because doing by far the most damage on my tamer isn't getting me any credit at all.

Maybe I should start requesting that tamers be allowed in pvp tournaments if you're going to make the implication that tank mages should be the best in TIs.

There is nothing difficult about standing in a solo area of a TI and spamming a few earthquakes on a ton of mobs to get top score.  Nothing.  "A bit more skill and work to do" is some of the biggest bollocks I've heard regarding this.  You know you aren't playing your tamer in TIs because its a pain in the ass to control pets and get them to attack shit while also trying to keep them organized and healed.  Its far more taxing than earth quaking or provoking.

All the current system does is encourage people to cheese it while doing no actual work in order to reap all the rewards.  From now on I'll just be doing the same thing until i get bored, since that is apparently what people are happy with here.

If this is considered a "Community event" before its considered a PVE event, then its far past time for there to be a TRUE PvE event.

[Pixelclicker]

You are new and it may seem out of whack to do 5x the damage and not be first but there are reasons. The damage was modified because early on everyone showed up with tamers and the ti and boss were wiped out in 20 minutes.  The winner in this ti is a tank mage a perfectly suitable template for pve.  It takes a bit more skill and work  to do direct damage then stand around letting dragons do the work.   I used my tamer early on in these for the ease(yes ease as much as you want to make it seem difficult)  before these changes were made.  Now I prefer a bard. The damage has been set this way for about 7 months with tis everyday without any major issues. Tis are a community gathering event not a how fast and easy can we kill everything and get mad loot event.  The best thing is it is open to many templates so folks can play what they enjoy even pks get in on the action.  If a tamer is not fun for you and other builds are more lucrative then seems an easy choice of what to do in future tis.  Jack has spent a ton of time working on and tweaking these events to keep them as balanced as possible.  Future adjustments and tweaking may be made but until then  enjoy and be happy with all the gold you are getting.

Strange that you claim tamers are just as easy to play in TIs as other templates, and yet you've admitted that you now play a bard.  And lets not beat around the bush, thats because it takes less effort to play and is just as effective or more so on score.  I posted this because I would like to see a change, because it is NOT okay for people to play PVP templates in a PVE event and get top scores.  There are what, 4 pvp events? and only ONE semi pve event.  You guys have your events, we dont.  From now all I'll be playing a bard or mage in TIs because doing by far the most damage on my tamer isn't getting me any credit at all.

Maybe I should start requesting that tamers be allowed in pvp tournaments if you're going to make the implication that tank mages should be the best in TIs.

There is nothing difficult about standing in a solo area of a TI and spamming a few earthquakes on a ton of mobs to get top score.  Nothing.  "A bit more skill and work to do" is some of the biggest bollocks I've heard regarding this.  You know you aren't playing your tamer in TIs because its a pain in the ass to control pets and get them to attack shit while also trying to keep them organized and healed.  Its far more taxing than earth quaking or provoking.

All the current system does is encourage people to cheese it while doing no actual work in order to reap all the rewards.  From now on I'll just be doing the same thing until i get bored, since that is apparently what people are happy with here.

If this is considered a "Community event" before its considered a PVE event, then its far past time for there to be a TRUE PvE event.

I would just like to add that the first place finisher is short and is living in the second place player's spare bedroom.

Additionally, i witnessed Alcs tamer repeatedly sodomized after another recent TI.  He couldn't get any of the gold orgy that falls when the boss died because Saber kept killing him.

[yakka]

I play a bard because how the event is scored now and I like that template better than a tamer. Otherwise I would do the most damage and have to whine someone else beat me. I have never once cast an eq in a ti. Though standing in place and casting repeatedly is still different than pets standing in place doing the work. Caster uses up regeants and mana plus is at risk of flagging if another player gets too close. For that alone should see greater reward. Yes Ti is community event first, they go all the way back to OSI days. Troll invasion of vesper was my single favorite night playing this game. Survival is a Pvm event. Maybe you should come up with a suggestion for a tamer specific event. Then players could maybe throw ideas of how one could work and Jack can tell us if it is doable.

[Veranis]

Most TI's are only useful for tamers during the first 2 stages. Usually by the 3rd or at least the 4th and final stage, the spawn is either too powerful (white wyrms, dragons, ethereals, succubus) or there is too much poison (silver serpants, avengers & poison elementals) for tamers anyway. You really need a bard if you want to get in the top 3 over a tamer for that reason alone, not even considering the EQ casters.

Despite not getting top spot on the scoresheet (and therefore a chance at the rare drop), you still got the correct amount of platinum. Platinum is more or less proportional to damage dealt, not scaled damage, so long as you are the highest damager of that particular mob. If you are killing mobs that are already at 40% or lower, move to another place in the TI and kill mobs that are higher than 50%. Plat has a chance of dropping when a mob dies that you did the most damage to.

[Alcsaar]

I just did the TI in skara today on my bard mage - I got first place doing 1/2 the damage my tamer did, for far less effort.  Yay for EQ + provoke.  no headache at all needed managing pets.  Good system, right.

I also made the same amount of gold (a little more actually), and 24 plat, but the TI took about 40 mins less.

I won't be bringing this up anymore as I believe my point is proven, if everyone is happy that people putting in little effort are getting the rewards, then so be it. If you can't beat em, join em.

[Jack]

I'll look at buffing both tamer and bard damage contribution toward total by doubling it. We can see how it goes.

[Pixelclicker]

I'll look at buffing both tamer and bard damage contribution toward total by doubling it. We can see how it goes.

I think Alc's contention is that tamer damage, not bard damage, is underpowered. 

I disagree with his premise and changing the system to increase barding or taming damage, however.  Tamers (and to a lesser degree bards) already take the lion's share of the platinum in these things.  Even in his example above, Reaper, Nightwind and Cobb still didn't make as much platinum as Alc did. 

Increasing taming damage would thus not only still give tamers most of the platinum, it would put dexers, tanks, and even bards at a disadvantage to even having a chance to get a rare.

Finally, if there's any class that's the MOST safe from being attacked by other players, it's a tamer leading 10+ wyrms on "all guard."  Increasing taming damage would thus give the most invulnerable players the most plat and the best chance at a rare, shutting everyone else out.  I would suggest at least taking a poll of the broader player base before changing this.

[Jack]

The reason I would be looking at buffing both, rather than one, is the problem (if any) here is the need to do direct damage to supplement regular bard/tamer damage. Bards are generally better at gaining direct damage due to being able to more easily earthquake.

I don't think there's an elegant solution for this that isn't just going to put bards and tamers as #1 in every invasion. Currently bard/tamer damage is at 10%, which I would look at raising to 15-20%.